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Role-Playing Games: Secrets: Pros, or for the fucking there of.

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      CommentAuthorBabe
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009 edited
     
    This topic got derailed last time it was brought up, so I've decided to renew the discussion with it's own thread. I was told once or twice that are arguments were not very clear or convincing as far as our opinions about in-game secrets were concerned, which is fair enough. I know that I personally have a hard time verbally articulating what I'm thinking or my opinions, so hopefully this thread will be a better outlet.

    Edit: Ignore what was here.
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      CommentAuthorShaun
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    I'll stay out of it then.
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      CommentAuthorBabe
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009 edited
     
    Deleted.
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      CommentAuthorShaun
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    I dislike secrets because, In my experience, all they do is frustrate players. They're one of those things that seems like it should be really cool and awesome, but in reality, tend to make players roll their eyes at best, or leave the table at worst. I'm sure that there have been the occasional case of secrets making a game really, really cool, but they've never worked in any game that I've ever run.
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      CommentAuthorArcana
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    That's fair Shaun, and you're right, it definitely has a lot to do with the temperament of the players. The way I suggest using secrets though, might help to work around it, because everyone would have their secret, like an ace up their sleeve, that they could whip out at a dramatically appropriate moment, everyone would know you have 'a secret' but they would not know what it is. The purpose of this game feature is to enable group character creation without losing out on moments that genuinely surprise both the characters, and the players. The reason why it is worth while to surprise both the characters, and the players, is that playing in Roleplaying games is best (I believe) when a delicate balance is achieved between being an actor, and being a member of the audience, if you're too much the actor, you know the script and everything that will happen, and if you're too much the audience you're playing in a game with a very traditional GM who has the whole epic story mapped out in detail already for you to experience, like a movie.

    Leaving room for surprises is very similar to letting players write in facts about the game world, because it is a fact about their character that was not revealed to the other players, and perhaps even to the GM.
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      CommentAuthorShaun
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009 edited
     
    But would it actually surprise anyone if everyone knew that everyone else could do something, just not exactly what?

    Also, if you're playing in a character-driven game, there should be an endless amount of surprise simply by virtue of nobody knowing how a given situation will turn out. If the GM is giving players an ace up their sleeve, then it stands to reason that he would have to engineer situations where that secret is going to prove to be useful.

    On the other hand, I suppose we should clear up whether we're talking about a mechanics-based secret, like a power, Feat, or ability, or a narrative secret, like being the prince of a kingdom, or having access to some particular bit of information.
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      CommentAuthorArcana
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    Posted By: ShaunOn the other hand, I suppose we should clear up whether we're talking about a mechanics-based secret, like a power, Feat, or ability, or a narrative secret, like being the prince of a kingdom, or having access to some particular bit of information.
    Yes. It's whatever the Player wants it to be, within reason and balance (if balance is a concern). It's a plot twist too, it takes moves the spotlight in unexpectedly (by everyone else) onto your character.

    Your right, the GM needs to create situations that test the player, especially if there are some story consequences to the secret becoming known (there do not need to be, but it might be interesting) so if you're secret is along the 'hidden power' vein, then yeah the GM should throw enemies at you that you can't handle, unless you use it (Otherwise you and the other characters run away) Or, if running away is too easy of an out, create situations in which relations are threatened, unless the character uses their power to save them.

    And I'm not sure that the other players would explicitly know that each player has a secret or two, it just seems like they would probably figure it out if they were smart (especially after one or two have been revealed), and because it would probably be in the rulebook of any game that decides to use this device.

    Also, if you're playing in a character-driven game, there should be an endless amount of surprise simply by virtue of nobody knowing how a given situation will turn out.
    Yes, but part of the enjoyment factor is being "in on it" and they while the results of a given situation is a surprise, it is not a secret, and it was not known beforehand, part of the fun of secrets is the fact that they are secret, until they aren't.
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      CommentAuthorBabe
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    I'll admit from the get-go that I have far less experience playing with different RPG groups than most people. However, as far as my experiences are concerned, secrets have never been anything but an over inflated pain in the ass. I think this occurs for a number of reasons.

    First, the GM has a lot on their plate, especially in the more labor intensive games. They have to have clues and discovery and NPC's and places and things and events and and and. Then they have to analyze what characters they're dealing with and how to engage them, how to challenge them and how to throw obstacles that will require that specific skill set at them. Add this to the really awesome stuff that happens during play and it gets lost. The GM might intend to incorporate this at the beginning of the campaign, but it gets lost so easily.

    Second, players feel like they put a lot of work into this secret back story or just their secret and can feel cheated when nothing comes into play, or doesn't come in enough. I feel this happens both due to busy GM, but also the the secret/back story not being a good fit into the narrative. Either it just won't work out within the world that the characters have been playing in, or it can't come into play without that one character's secret seriously cutting into the other players' enjoyment. Even if it does fit into the story, only one player is guaranteed to buy in, as opposed to "your team's shit just got fucked up".

    And last, it can just be downright obnoxious for the other players. When something happens and one player says "Oh I give you some legal advice then look scared and walk away", and I say "What was that about?" and the player says "Oh...nothing. It's a secret", then I want to punch a dude in the face. There's comments and giggling and little things that the player with the secret makes sure everyone sees, but refuses to talk about it. It's like arguing with women when they "if you don't know what you did then I'm not going to tell you". It's just frustrating, and breeds contempt for that secret that, when it's finally revealed, nobody cares anymore. It's been so obnoxious that everyone's just finally relieved that everything's over.
  9.  
    Posted By: BabeI'll admit from the get-go that I have far less experience playing with different RPG groups than most people. However, as far as my experiences are concerned, secrets have never been anything but an over inflated pain in the ass. I think this occurs for a number of reasons.

    First, the GM has a lot on their plate, especially in the more labor intensive games. They have to have clues and discovery and NPC's and places and things and events and and and. Then they have to analyze what characters they're dealing with and how to engage them, how to challenge them and how to throw obstacles that will require that specific skill set at them. Add this to the really awesome stuff that happens during play and it gets lost. The GM might intend to incorporate this at the beginning of the campaign, but it gets lost so easily.

    Second, players feel like they put a lot of work into this secret back story or just their secret and can feel cheated when nothing comes into play, or doesn't come in enough. I feel this happens both due to busy GM, but also the the secret/back story not being a good fit into the narrative. Either it just won't work out within the world that the characters have been playing in, or it can't come into play without that one character's secret seriously cutting into the other players' enjoyment. Even if it does fit into the story, only one player is guaranteed to buy in, as opposed to "yourteam'sshit just got fucked up".

    And last, it can just be downright obnoxious for the other players. When something happens and one player says "Oh I give you some legal advice then look scared and walk away", and I say "What was that about?" and the player says "Oh...nothing. It's a secret", then I want to punch a dude in the face. There's comments and giggling and little things that the player with the secret makes sure everyone sees, but refuses to talk about it. It's like arguing with women when they "if you don't know what you did then I'm not going to tell you". It's just frustrating, and breeds contempt for that secret that, when it's finally revealed, nobody cares anymore. It's been so obnoxious that everyone's just finally relieved that everything's over.


    I agree wholeheardtedly, you don't want it to be Slumber Party Secret "We're not telling you because blah blah". What I don't like is when characters will become petty to the point where they all conspire against one another secretly and the game completely unhinges. It kills the game (in most genres) but I could see some really nasty secrets working in a game like Dread or Paranoia. Actually, Paranoia has a nasty way of putting them in regardless of feedback.
  10.  
    Posted By: BabeThis topic got derailed last time it was brought up, so I've decided to renew the discussion with it's own thread. I was told once or twice that are arguments were not very clear or convincing as far as our opinions about in-game secrets were concerned, which is fair enough. I know that I personally have a hard time verbally articulating what I'm thinking or my opinions, so hopefully this thread will be a better outlet.

    Edit: Ignore what was here.


    Posted By: BabeDeleted.


    Yes, Virginia, I am an asshole. Sorry about that last time. I didn't really bring it up or explain it well. I don't want to troll the forums.
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      CommentAuthorBabe
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    Don't sweat it. Those posts weren't in reference to the last time the topic was broached anyways, different issue.
  12.  
    Posted By: BabeDon't sweat it. Those posts weren't in reference to the last time the topic was broached anyways, different issue.


    Damn you guys don't even hate me now? I need some kind of attention, god damn it. Love me or hate me, please.
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      CommentAuthorArcana
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
     
    Well I'm going to go out on a limb here, based on the arguments presented, and offer a potential conclusion;

    "Secrets can be cool if used right and if the people you are playing with are not petty and don't suck."
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      CommentAuthorBabe
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2009
     
    Posted By: Arcana"Secrets can be cool if used right and if the people you are playing with are not petty and don't suck."


    But when you have to have that many caveats to make a thing work, the pay off had better be worth it. I can see where the temptation is, and the potential for a great return on that investment, and I think that's why people get tempted into including them. My secret could be cool, it could play out really cool in the story, but the odds are that it's just not going to happen. The scenario you lays out has too many conditions to be successful a majority of the time.

    I just feel that there are so many other elements that can easily be introduced to a game, and the battle secrets require for a successful execution isn't worth the time. Relationships and character-driven drama instantly ties in your players to the game and the implementation comes without a laundry list of caveats. I just don't feel secrets are worth the battle.
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      CommentAuthorArcana
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2009
     
    Because I've seen it work -the way they have been used in games I've run- I believe in it as a great device, and have no reluctance to use it again.

    Because You (Those of you on the other side of this) have seen it Not work -In whatever way secrets were used in games you've played in or ran- You don't believe they can work/be worth the effort.

    Because this is a matter of belief (aka a "Religious War") there is no resolution that can be reached by discussion-If you want to see if my way works and can be fun, you have to give it an honest shot using the ideas I've described. If I want to see if your way works and is fun/more fun I have to do the same.

    Short of that we are just trying to convert others to our respective camps, because we all think we are in the right. :)
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      CommentAuthorShaun
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2009
     
    If it works in your group, awesome. I'm glad it works for you.

    That being said, I don't necessarily see it working across the board, whereas I think that a transparent approach would work much more often.

    It's nothing like a religious debate, since religion depends on belief based on desire. Unfortunately, we don't really have a big enough sample to work with anything other than anecdotal evidence.
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      CommentAuthorArcana
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2009
     
    You know I meant that Tongue-In-Cheek, right? the internet sucks at inflections. Anyway, we are essentially saying the same thing at this point; I'll even concede that secrets could be problematic, but not that that's a reason not to use them if you think it'll add to the enjoyment of the game.
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      CommentAuthorTimeroler
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2009
     
    What about in a pvp game?

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